Reaching the top with a young family

Our focus for this Season is ‘Fitting Life and Work Together’ and I’m delighted to welcome Rachel Macfarlane, Group Head of Legal at Quintet Private Bank as my guest. Today we’ll be talking about ‘Reaching the top with a young family’, confidence and dealing with imposter syndrome.

A big thank you to Karen Skidmore: Business, Life & Leadership for sponsoring our second season. Karen and her team are on a mission to put a stop to midlife burnout by helping women to create a new rhythm and flow to their professional lives and are offering you a free easy-to-follow Energy Tracker to help you see how your monthly cycle contributes to your productivity levels. Download your free tracker here.

About this episode

Our focus for this Season is ‘Fitting Life and Work Together’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women about their careers, work, family and how they juggle everything life throws at us. I’m delighted to welcome Rachel Macfarlane as my guest today. Rachel is Group Head of Legal at Quintet Private Bank, having been promoted from the role of General Counsel at Brown Shipley. She joins me today to talk about ‘reaching the top with a young family’, confidence and dealing with imposter syndrome.

Resources

Download your free Energy Tracker:  www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation

This free easy-to-follow resource from our sponsor, Karen Skidmore: Business, Life & Leadership, will help you to see how your monthly cycle, hormones and seasons all contribute to your productivity levels throughout the year.

My Confidence Matters research report on the impact of the pandemic on gender balance in business - Rethinking leadership through a gender lens: New ways of working resulting from Covid-19.

Episode transcript

Joy Burnford: Hello Rachel and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.

Rachel Macfarlane: Hi, Joy, great to speak to you.

Joy Burnford: Nice to speak to you too. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your, I know, very busy day to talk to me today. So as you know, the theme for Season Two of our podcast is Fitting Life and Work together. So I thought it'd be great to chat to you today about your career and confidence, your family and the last 12 months, then perhaps we can finish off with the look to the future and what you think the future looks like for women in the workplace. So to kick us off, perhaps you could tell me a little bit about your career in a nutshell for those who don't know you.

Rachel Macfarlane: Thanks, Joy. So I'm a lawyer, I work at a private bank, Quintet Private Bank. I head up the legal team across the group. So that's across the UK, Switzerland and across Europe. We manage the wealth of clients and their families. And we consider ourselves a trusted fiduciary partner to our clients and their families, that's our goal, and our vision for the bank. So what does managing the legal team or managing the legal business of the bank mean? It's a fascinating role actually being a lawyer in a bank. And actually, in any business. For me, it's one of the greatest roles in an organisation, because we're involved in all aspects of the bank. So we work with the client’s advisors, we work with the back office teams, we work with our colleagues in compliance, in HR. And we work with the business and the strategy in the planning, mergers and acquisitions, big projects going on. We're involved in those, as well as running our daily legal business. So making sure we have competent contracts in place, we're managing the legal risk, and we're providing legal advice on topics that we need. So we really do cover the whole breadth of the organisation, which is why it's such a sort of helicopter, you know, fascinating role. I sort of landed working in-house as it’s called, so working as a lawyer in an organisation. I started off in being a lawyer in private practice. I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I thought I wanted to be a criminal lawyer. And so I did some work experience age 16. That was very scary and it put me off.  

Joy Burnford: It put you off for life!

Rachel Macfarlane: Yes, it did. We visited some defendants in the jail. So I was very scared. I was 16 and had quite a sheltered upbringing and realised that wasn't for me. So I studied law at university, I did my training contract to become qualified. And then early on, actually, I had an opportunity to go on secondment to a bank in London. So I did that for six months during the Olympics, which was fantastic to be in London during during the Olympics. And I never looked back really, I think I realised quite early on, it was being a lawyer in a completely different way. A completely different mindset set of skills that were needed, and I find being a qualified lawyer really is only a very small part of the skill sets I need now and needed back then, to be to be a very good in-house lawyer for the organisation. So I didn't really look back and decided that this is the swap or moving to the dark side, staying in house was for me. I had an opportunity to stay in the organisation which I took, and then have moved along my career path since then.

Joy Burnford: And you're promoted last year.

Rachel Macfarlane: I was, yes, I had an internal promotion last year.  So before that I was Head of Legal of the UK entity part of the group, and then promoted up to the Group Head of Legal, which was a new role for the organisation as part of its transformation strategy over the next five years.

Joy Burnford: Amazing. Brilliant, and you're not, I hate telling people saying they look young, but you know, you're not that old. I always think it's amazing. You're one of my sort of role models, and Wow, you've got this amazing job, and you're not that old. And it's amazing.

Rachel Macfarlane: Thanks, Joy. I think the last 12 months has added some wrinkles, along with everybody else. But I feel very fortunate to have had a number of opportunities and have taken them effectively. And it has meant that I have accelerated through and, and am now in a senior role. And in those days where, you know, you feel like you don't know what you're doing, you think, can I do this? And that's really when you need to kind of kick in and think about those skills you do have and talk to yourself, as I like to say.

Joy Burnford: Definitely. Tell me about sort of any confidence challenges you've had in your career.

Rachel Macfarlane: If you'd have asked me 12 months ago, or 18 months ago, you know, imposter syndrome is something that we talk about a lot in different networks and different roles I've had and if we're thinking about leadership training, it's something that always crops up. And I would have said that I haven't really been affected by that. I think I was lucky to be honest, really. And then in this role, I definitely have been affected by imposter syndrome. I think it was such a big role for me to take on, and a complete push out of my comfort zone. So I think, especially early on, you know, I did question, Can I do this? Have I taken on too much? Am I going to succeed? You know, so I definitely have those thoughts which lasted definitely the first couple of months. I don't think it really helped that I started my new role and then two weeks later, the pandemic hit. So trying to then run a team of lawyers in six different locations who weren't used to working together or hadn't worked together before as a team. That added complexity of you know, me trying to work out how to actually achieve what I needed to do in the first 12 months of the role. So the sort of book of the first 90 days, I think, went out the window, which the pandemic just made sort of 10 times harder. But yeah, definitely. Now, through the other side, I wouldn't say I feel completely confident every day with what I'm doing. But I try and learn from what I've been doing. You know, I like to talk to myself, which sounds slightly mad, but if I'm having one of those days, you know, I've got my tools, I think to sort of have a little chat with myself, or I've got people I reach out to you know, that's a good network of people and friends. Actual friends who I can talk to. But I think also it's the network. And I think that's really the key for me, thinking about this ahead of time. It's having your network as a professional female in the workplace, you know, knowing who you can go to if you're having a confidence crisis day, or you want to pick someone's brains on something, or have you dealt with this before? Asking what do you think? And it's not about just speaking to lawyers, or lawyers in banks, or lawyers in-house, it's about having that breadth of resource that you can tap into. I think it's one of the lawyers who wrote a book, and she was calling it her tribe, so I won’t pinch that, I’ll give Sarah her credit, but I think that's important, I think that you need that tribe of people. When you are, you know, genuinely thinking, I'm stuck, or I'm not sure what to do, or you haven't experienced it before, be able to go and draw on your tribe as Sarah calls it, I think is also something that I've learned and relied on over the last 12 months as well.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely. I think people don't often say to you, when you're taking on a new job, that you will feel like you lack confidence because it's new. And of course, it’s going to happen.

Rachel Macfarlane: Yeah, I also had a really supportive boss, so Maria, my current boss, the Chief Legal Officer, she's absolutely fantastic. You know, she’s one of the most respected heads of legal, general counsel, in the industry. And she's achieved so much in her career. And she's definitely a true true leader in her field. And she's a fantastic support. She really did have an open door policy, and I could run things past her and just felt very supported. And I think that's also really important, you know, male or female boss, if you have someone who, you know, is going to give you that bit of air cover or brought you into a role, which is a stretch and then actually allowing you the time to grow into it and to succeed, and then be there if you do need to bounce anything off. For me, that's been the key. I think, why we've managed to, or I've managed to, you know, I think I'm on the right path to succeeding in the role. Anyway, I’d hope that she would think that.

Joy Burnford: And I know last time we talked, we talked a little bit about the fact you're managing people now who are older than you. Tell me a bit about that and sort of where you find your courage and confidence to manage that.

Rachel Macfarlane: I think I've had that a little bit in the past, but this was definitely the first time where it's pretty much across the board older, and also on paper more qualified. So I was told that a few times, early on by a certain number of people. So yeah, you have to believe in yourself. I think if you don't believe in yourself, then that will start to eat away at you or start chipping away, you know, oh gosh, are they right? Or can I do this? Am I actually able to do this? So I think you have to put up a bit of a shield and try and get those comments deflected away from you. So you don't take them on board and internalise them, and then that becomes the little voice in your head, or the monkey on your shoulder, I think as other people call it chipping away at you. I think I felt like I had to prove myself to some of my new team. So early on, you know, rather than just being accepted that I was doing the position, it was important that I did prove, and then that's actually worked quite well. So should I have had to do that questioning I suppose, but that worked for me, actually showing that I was capable and did have the skills and the necessary experience to do the role. They needed to respect me, I think, and that was also important, again, potentially, you don't walk into somewhere, and you know, is that a given or not, I think that's another interesting debate with the time potentially Joy. And then you decide, am I going to fight against this or, you know, assume that they should have this respect and understand I can do the job, or you can take the time to understand their concerns and listen to them to show that actually, you know, we can work together and we can achieve something as a team because the team succeeds or the team fails. We definitely have that ethos within our team that we work together, and we succeed together. And if we have a bump in the road, then we support each other and we help each other through. So it was about me really having to set out the vision and really bringing them on the journey so that they could understand it and see it and feel like they were part of it as well. So that seemed to be the way that we then, you know, got to the point where we were operating as a team.

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Joy Burnford: So coming on to the theme for this podcast, which is about fitting life and work together. So I've talked a bit about your work. Tell me a bit about your family at home and how you've managed to fit life and work together before the pandemic and then we'll move on to throughout the pandemic.

Rachel Macfarlane: I'm very lucky with my family. I've got a loving husband and a little boy who's four years old, and he's at preschool. So he starts school in September, which I can't believe he’s starting school in September. He's becoming more and more independent every day, wanting to do everything himself. So he's definitely growing up very fast, which I think every parent says don't they.

Joy Burnford: Mine’s going to be 12 on Thursday, so nearly a teenager!

Rachel Macfarlane: So yeah, I'm very, very lucky to have a supportive family, I like to think of it as having your life in balance. I think if we talk about work life balance, I think you're immediately creating a conflict for yourself, because you're then having to pick, it sort of feels like sometimes. So I try and think of it as having your life in balance. And then that works for me. Thinking about work being part of your life, and then it feels like less of a conflict, less of the guilt creeping in. The guilt definitely creeps in, I think you know, you feel like you're not doing a very good job at anything sometimes. And definitely more so during the pandemic, which we'll come on to. I think it's about finding that balance that's right for you. And I think it's also understanding that everyone's balance is different. And so there's no one way to have that balance. And it's about not judging people, which I think is really important, you know, if people choose to run their life and choose to have their balance their way, I think it's important that that's respected, and that they're not judged. There's lots of judgments out there, you know, I think there's judgement from the point you become a mum, you know, or even become pregnant, I think some of judgement starts. And I didn't quite realise the amount of judgments I would get about these things, even from the workplace, actually, you know, about when you go back to work, do you go back to work? Do you not go back to work and everyone having a view on that. And then do you go back part time or full time, and what happens to your child, who is looking after your child during the day. And you're suddenly judged to be a bad parent because I chose to go back full time after six months of having Lucas and I received quite a lot of negative judgments about that. And I was commuting at the time as well actually, I did a two-hour each way commute, which looking back now is completely insane, pre pandemic. So, yeah, I didn't see him every morning and every night. But I did remind people that I was, you know, part of a family and I had a husband who is also a parent.

Joy Burnford: So did he do quite a lot of that time when you weren't there?

Rachel Macfarlane: Yeah, he's flexible. So he runs his own business. So I think it works out quite well. You know, I think we're lucky in that regard that we can support each other. So he is more flexible.

Joy Burnford: Did he enjoy that?

Rachel Macfarlane: He did, he did enjoy it actually, you know, he really did enjoy it. They used to spend Friday afternoons together. So he wouldn't be in nursery full time and then they’d go swimming on a Friday afternoon, or do little errands and things. And he really enjoyed that time.

Joy Burnford: It's interesting to hear from men who have had that time with their children, actually, and have experienced it and saying how wonderful it has been. I mean, my husband, I think you know, looked after my daughter when she was born and took a year out of his work to actually be full time Daddy daycare. I don't think he'd do it again. It's good to have the experience. So how about once COVID hit, I know, we all suffered from stress around having kids at home and that kind of thing. So how did you kind of fit things together? And in that last 12 months, has it affected you? And what challenges have you faced?

Rachel Macfarlane: I think actually, for me, it's, well, other than the stress of you know, he was what, three and a half, once everything closed, and everyone who had children was a similar position, but you suddenly then had to figure out how we're going to actually look after your children during the day when you're also working. And most of us were working. And then my husband was quite poorly, actually, at the very beginning of the pandemic with COVID, he was pretty much bed bound for three weeks, so I was having to look after him and then work and then Lucas. So Paw Patrol became a friend, which you feel awful about don't you, you realise that you haven't interacted but just had the television. So yeah, you just had to do whatever, it was just a case of getting through it for me, you know, really getting through it, I think I really missed my broader family support, my dad picks up our little boy two nights a week, and he's involved, you know, he's his papa. And he's very much involved. So not being able to see dad and he was on his own. So also worrying about him. Again, as lots of people in positions where you've got young children or even children, and then you've also got parents you were worrying about, I think there seemed to be a lot more pressure and a lot more stress points, trying to then adapt to working from home, you know, the technology issues, and then everyone was just trying to figure out what to do. And then I think actually, in our business and a lot of business, having spoken to people in my network, the legal questions actually became quite significant, because it was how do you run [insert business] online? You know, can you get electronic signatures? How do we get documents signed? How do we run our business effectively, and that involves a lot of a lot of the lawyers getting involved. So we suddenly became very busy on top of everything else. So plus, I just started my new job. So there's definitely a lot of going on, you know, working long hours trying to fit everything in. Our company was very flexible and understood that, you know, not everyone could do their, you know, sitting down doing their usual hours, and they're very flexible and happy that people managed where they could really and if people couldn't manage, understanding and being flexible, because people had different needs, really. Some had small children, some had elderly parents, they'd had to move in. Others had caring responsibilities.

Joy Burnford: And some people were very lonely and on their own as well.

Rachel Macfarlane: And then the younger generation, I think they've been massively affected, you know, house sharing and having no working space other than their bedroom, you know, those people are affected in a different way as well. So I think as organisations, it is important to understand all the different types of stressors and environments, I think that people were dealing with. And then being let into the home, you know, this whole concept. Now you're working with your clients, your partners, your colleagues being let into your home environment, you know, feeling like you kind of opened yourself up a little bit from a personal perspective and the jokes about the dogs and the children on the calls but actually, that's part of you, isn't it?

Joy Burnford: It’s positive.

Rachel Macfarlane: It’s positive I think. I remember Lucas jumping in front of a call and you know, and I was like, Oh, I'm so sorry, sir. And then everyone's like, Oh, he’s so cute, get him to come and say hello. And I wasn't expecting that reaction. Like I tried to think, this is work and this is family. And I think it's almost drilled into you a little bit that if you show you that side of yourself, it can be perceived as a weakness. So I think I had that in my head. So I'm actually really pleased that I was able to kind of be a bit more me actually. Bring myself a little bit more.

Joy Burnford: Yes, I think you have to, well I do, kind of compartmentalise myself a bit when it comes to work. It’s like you have to switch immediately from mummy mode to work mode to other mode. And it's quite hard. I think, especially when you're working at home that's even more difficult sometimes. One of the things we found in our research was that you face the sort of blurred boundaries between personal and professional life, so I’d love to know how you manage that, but also looking at your own health and wellbeing. How do you find time to switch into that space where it's about you? Do you have time to do that?

Rachel Macfarlane: The pandemic though, I think was positive. I was travelling a lot, travelling into the office and Manchester, travelling down to London, I was about to start travelling over to Luxembourg and have been in Europe a few times. So I wasn't here every morning and every night, and that was our normal, if that makes sense. But I think working from home, I can now see the family every morning and every night. So that that for me has actually become a positive which is how I hope to carry on as we kind of think about the new normal. So I think that's something that I've reflected on is, it's great even just to say, you know, hello, and then I can go back to work after he gets back from preschool which is lovely, and I just didn't have that before. So I think that's something to be sort of thankful for actually. On the, you know, health and wellbeing side, I think it's so easy to just work the whole time. You know, I think everyone did that early on, I think lots of businesses were going through busy times, we were certainly busy because we're trying to figure out how to run a bank with skeleton staff online, lots of organisations were unfortunately going through different kinds of crisis’s, you know, their entire business model had gone out the window, or their income or their revenues suddenly dried up, so I think businesses and people working in businesses, were suddenly under a lot of different kinds of pressure. Am I going to have my job, am I going to be furloughed, am I going to be made redundant. So I think that was one side of it, and then the other side is suddenly being very busy dealing with new problems that no one realised where even problems until the world shut down effectively. So I think that added extra pressure on top of everything else that was going on. So there was a lot of, I'll just carry on because it's easier, and I'm in my spare bedroom or, in my office and that's not good for mental health either. I think if you don't have a designated workspace and not everyone is lucky and has that, especially in places like London, when you know, space is more of a premium, and trying to carve out an office space is just not realistic really is it for people. So I think people were dealing with those things. I think you have to set boundaries, Joy. I think for me, you know, and I'm not the best person at setting boundaries, if I'm being honest, I've got better I think, as I've got older, but I think you do have to. I started learning French actually, because it's important for building relationships with colleagues. So we have English as our language, but people like to speak French. So I'm learning French and have that in the diary once a week. And yes, this crisis is going on. But for me, that's important to kind of have that in the diary. Similarly, I try and do a training session once a week as well for PT. And again, I keep that in the diary. Sometimes it gets moved. But I try and keep to that because I think that's important. Mentally, actually, as well as keeping fit as well. I'd be lying if I said I managed to go for a walk every day and switched off and you know, did mindfulness and had all this time every day, that would be a lie, Joy.

Joy Burnford: Somebody said to me once they have something called non negotiables in their diary, which I think is brilliant. So everybody in the team knows what that it is, it doesn't have to be picking up children from school, it could be doing a French lesson. It could be you know, doing a PT class, whatever it is. So I think just finishing off really, thinking about the future. What do you think organisations can learn from this crisis? And are you feeling optimistic about the future?

Rachel Macfarlane: I think organisations have fixed ideas like being in the office and I think that's probably discriminated against all sorts of different kinds of discrimination we have and you know, ideally, I'd be in the office to do a job. And I think that discriminates against all the categories of discrimination, to be honest. So I'm hoping that that mindset will go so that we open our minds up and see when people who potentially can't get into the office, for a number of different reasons can do jobs from home, and we all had to be trusted because everything was thrown into complete chaos overnight, wasn't it? People have had to be trusted. So there was no trial period, or let's see, or prejudices around what could or couldn't be done. And so, organisations didn't have a choice. It was a case of, well, we have to trust and see what happens and I would like to think that on the whole that works, you know, people have shown that they are able to do their roles. So I'm hoping that actually opens up opportunities for maybe sections of communities and sections of people who are able to work that maybe have had these opportunities closed off to them before. I think that would be something that I would hope that organisations don’t forget, you know, when looking at recruitment or looking at internal mobility. I'm looking forward to getting back to the office. I definitely missed people. You know, I'm an extrovert I think I thrive off people and that kind of human contact. So, you know, video is good, better than a phone. But I think you know, it's going into a meeting and it's pouring a cup of coffee before you sit down and having a chat and then halfway through the meeting, you know, just the watercooler chat, then you find out what's going on in the organisation. And unless you put a video call in the diary or find five minutes to quickly call somebody, I think we're missing out, on those little points, and then you have that visibility. I think some people I spoke to at the beginning of the pandemic, were also slightly paranoid, am I not being invited to things and things going on, and wondering am I not involved. They didn't have the visibility over so that was affecting people's mental health. Actually, that kind of paranoia is creeping in. So I don't see us getting back to commuting every day, I just don't think it's necessary. I think people will need a reason to go into the office, you know, if there's a reason there will be a pull to go into the office as opposed to something that we do. So rather than just because we did it before, we drive to the train station, and we sit on the train and we go to the office and, you know, I think it'll need to be a reason. And that could be a number of things, you know, meeting people networking, going to an event, learning something, coffee with colleagues, you name it. You just can't do a virtual coffee. I know people think they think that you can but for me, it's not the same. Equally, I'm fed up of making my own coffees.

Joy Burnford: I think the key learning for me for organisations is not to assume that because you're a female, and you've got children, that you want to work from home all the time, because I think if you asked any woman that's got kids, they probably want to get back into the office.

Rachel Macfarlane: I think that’s it, not making assumptions about what people want, you know, we've had surveys, actually. So we've been quite good at sending out surveys, you know, what do you think you might want to do and what does the new normal look like? And I think that's the key really, is not to make assumptions about what people want to do. And I think we are going to end up with a tailored way, I can't see a policy being drafted by any organisation that says, everyone comes in on Monday and Wednesday, or you know, everyone works nine to five, I think we've also hopefully realised that you know, you can do a nine to five job, it doesn't have to be nine to five, you can fit other things in around it. And if you do log on a bit later, and then stay a bit later, the world hasn't ended and you've still done a good job. So I think having that flexible flexibility in terms of where you physically are, and flexibility around being able to do your job. Yes, some roles obviously if you're, you know, maybe in retail or something, maybe you can't decide to come in if the shop isn't open for example. That's a silly example maybe. There are obviously some roles that need to have fixed hours. But I think where employers can be more flexible, I would hope because they have been shown that it's been fine, that again, they don't forget those these points, either.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. That is so inspirational. Thank you, Rachel, it’s been a delight to talk to you, as always, you’re a great role model to lots of people out there. So thank you again for joining me today.

Rachel Macfarlane: Thank you very much for having me, Joy. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.

And remember you can download a free easy-to-follow Energy Tracker to help you see how your monthly cycle contributes to your productivity levels at www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation.

Thank you, and until next time, goodbye.