Asking for what you need at work
Our focus for this Season is ‘Fitting Life and Work Together’ and today I’m welcoming the wonderful Sonia Astill, Chief People Officer at Wickes as my guest. Today we’ll be talking about ‘Asking for what you need at work’.
A big thank you to Karen Skidmore: Business, Life & Leadership for sponsoring our second season. Karen and her team are on a mission to put a stop to midlife burnout by helping women to create a new rhythm and flow to their professional lives and are offering you a free easy-to-follow Energy Tracker to help you see how your monthly cycle contributes to your productivity levels. Download your free tracker here.
About this episode
Our focus for this Season is ‘Fitting Life and Work Together’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women about their careers, work, family and how they juggle everything life throws at us. Today I’m welcoming the wonderful Sonia Astill as my guest. Sonia is the Chief People Officer at Wickes and has an established career in HR in the retail sector. I have got to know Sonia and her team over the last few years delivering our modern leadership programmes to Wickes. Sonia is also a single mum to 2 boys and today we’ll be talking about ‘Asking for what you need at work’.
Resources
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Episode transcript
Joy Burnford: Good morning, Sonia and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.
Sonia Astill: Morning Joy, it’s brilliant to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Joy Burnford: Lovely to have you, and as you know the theme for Season Two is Fitting Life and Work Together. So I'd like to take this opportunity to chat to you about your career, your family, your support network and any advice for listeners from an HR perspective as well. To kick us off perhaps you could tell me a little bit about your role at work, your family at home and how do you manage to fit life, family childcare and work all together?
Sonia Astill: Oh crikey that’s a really big question there Joy, thank you. Let’s kick off with my role shall we, I’m Chief People Officer for Wickes which most people will recognise as a home improvement retailer. We serve three distinct customer groups, the DIYers, which most of us fall into that category, trade, so that's your small builders, carpenters, plumbers, landscapers, etc. And the ‘do it for me’ market, so those people who want to buy and have a kitchen or bathroom installed, we do that as well. We have around about 8000 colleagues spread across our Support Centre, Distribution and around about 240 stores in the UK. But we also have about 3000 contracted fitters as well. So it's a sizable number of people. And my role really is to oversee essentially all of the people and organisational sort of aspects of the business. That includes protecting and developing the culture and leadership behaviours to sort of best serve our customers and deliver the business strategy. But it also is about ensuring that Wickes is a great place to work for a relatively diverse workforce, you know, where everyone feels included, and at home. The last year has been a bit different so all those things have still been very much part of the role. But in particular, the focus over the last 12 months for me, along with the other directors of the business has been to sort of navigate the pandemic. So obviously supporting the wellbeing of colleagues, keeping them safe, but also managing this huge amount of change that's gone on in the business, operational change in the main to keep serving customers and keeping the business running quite frankly over that period of time.
Joy Burnford: And allowing people to do their home improvements during lockdown.
Sonia Astill: Absolutely. You know, we've seen an absolute boom, haven't we, as we’ve all been home-schooling, installing gyms in our homes, you know, it's been a really interesting time for families and how they use their space. And, you know, Wickes has pretty much been at the heart of all of that which has fantastic and very interesting. But the other big focus for my role over the last 12 months as well, has been demerging Wickes from its parent company to be an independently listed business and starting a quite significant separation of all of the systems, the processes and the people and the teams as well. So particularly the last 12 months has been, it's been very busy.
Joy Burnford: Yes, I think with your role as well, it really falls into this category of fitting life and work together. Because it's, you know, everybody that works for you has been having to do that as well. So it's really interesting to get your insights on that. So tell me a little bit about how you've managed that with your own personal challenges? I know, we've spoken during home-schooling times, and you know, we've both been tearing our hair out, but great to know how you manage that whole kind of life work balance.
Sonia Astill: Yes. I mean, like many people, you know, it's not particularly easy, and I certainly wouldn't profess to be an expert at it, to be perfectly honest with you Joy. I mean, I'm a single mother, I work full time, I have two small boys, age six, and eight. So, so life is very busy. And having a support network is absolutely critical. I have to say, life genuinely does go pretty well. So broadly, things work quite well. And I'll sort of, you know, go into what I think is important in that space, there are some days where it goes phenomenally well. And I do feel like Superwoman, and I, you know, I think I’ve really cracked it and everything's great. But you know, equally there are days where, you know, it's pretty awful, the planets, despite my best efforts have absolutely not aligned, either I'm crying, or the kids are crying, or we're all crying together and hugging and eating ice cream. You know, it's the full spectrum, to be honest with you.
Joy Burnford: I know, I was chatting to somebody yesterday about the fact you know, you have your day planned out sometimes. And then things just fly in from left field. You know, like, even yesterday, it was very silly, for example, but our milk didn't get delivered. And it's having to sort that out, it's little things like that can then take you sort of half an hour of trying to sort it out. Those little things in life that just kind of get in the way.
Sonia Astill: I think it is the little things, it's the cumulative little things that can just sort of kind of throw you off course. And you know, you're lucky if that happens at the end of the day, because you know, you can go to bed pretty quickly after that. But if they happen at the beginning of the day, then that can be a bit more of a challenge. That's so true.
Joy Burnford: And do you build in any time for that kind of those inevitabilities? Do you ever build in sort of spare capacity in your day? Or do you sort of generally have it back-to-back?
Sonia Astill: I mean, I try to, but you know Joy, it's not always easy to do that. But I think there are, you know, when I think about how I manage, there are probably three things that make a difference. And the first one actually is about the organisation that I work in, I've chosen to work in an organisation actually, that has empathy. And that's at the heart of the culture of the Wickes business. You know, and the business is great like that. And so what it means is that people who I work with, genuinely understand the challenges in life, they care about each other, and are prepared to support you and be flexible when you most need it. So, you know, despite trying to build in as much contingency into the day as possible, when that just goes out the window. It's just, you know, choosing to be in an organisation that gets that and can, you know, support when that happens, I think is really, really important. So that's definitely, you know, when I think about what makes a difference, that's definitely there. I think the other thing that I do is, I do talk about what I need to do my job well. And this has not always been the case. Certainly, the beginning of my career, I would never have talked about what I need. It was all about what other people needed and how I could help them, but I talk about what I need to do my job well to my boss, to my peers, and actually to the team of people who work for me as well. So there's a lot of contracting, there's a lot of conversation that goes on, and flexibility on both sides. And I think that's really important. Personal responsibility sits at the heart of the Wickes culture, and I really do think you need that to sort of have adult conversations about, you know how to make things work for both you and the business as well. So I think talking, it sounds really simple. But I do think talking and laying out what you need from other people has been a game changer, I think for me.
Joy Burnford: That’s really interesting, and could you give me some examples of the kinds of things that you feel you need, just in terms of, you know, when you're having those conversations?
Sonia Astill: I'll give you a recent example, actually, so we have a board meeting, a monthly board meeting, that for ever, has always started at eight o'clock in the morning. And that, particularly as a single mother, just doesn't fit with my morning. But it's a really key meeting, obviously, it's a board meeting, it’s very important. And I kind of recall the words of my mother, who always used to say, you know, you don't get if you don't ask sort of thing, which is easier said than done. But I recently asked if our board meeting could be moved back an hour, so that I could do the school run. I'm not sure I would have asked that a few years ago, or certainly the beginning of my career as a HR director, I just would have probably half killed myself to sort of do the two things together, you know, and being on a conference call with the kids screaming, and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, getting really anxious, but you know, my boss, who is fantastic, was really supportive of that and is happy to move the time back. And he knows he gets the flexibility from me on other occasions as well. So it's got to be a two way street.
Joy Burnford: I think that's the thing, you know, talking about confidence, I think it's a really key message is actually don't be afraid to ask because you know, what's the worst that can happen? And, you know, they might have said, No, we can't move it because of XYZ. But actually, if you don't ask you don't get, so brilliant example.
Sonia Astill: I think that's so that's so true. And I think the other thing, the final thing I think that makes a difference is I absolutely use all the resources available to me, you know, I'm not proud to ask other mums and dads to pick the boys up if I can't make it or to take them back to their house for tea or a playdate. I mean, I reciprocate, obviously, when I can, you know, again, it's two-way street. You know, I utilise after school clubs. And interestingly, I think the boys are, you know, they're sociable, they're adaptable, they're self-reliant, they're resilient. And that will stand them in good stead in their life. And in part, they get that, because I'm the working mum, and we have to live our life in a certain way.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And they see you as a role model, I think it's great to see, you know, that women can be doing that. And, you know, I had a mother who worked. And she's been my role model, because I just, you know, I expected that women worked like that, and they worked really hard. And they went out and earned money, they weren't necessarily going to be at home being a housewife.
Sonia Astill: And I actually, you know, I mean, I have two boys. And I think in particular, this is important, because, you know, we know that in many ways, you know, achieving gender equality is really only going to be achieved through the liberation of men and boys. And, you know I want to teach my boys, what that means and the role that they play in that. And I think being a working mum, and, you know, organising our life in the way we do goes part way to achieving that.
Joy Burnford: Absolutely, completely agree.
Joy Burnford:*** I hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I just want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about the free Energy Tracker that our sponsor is offering you. If, like me, you sometimes find it hard to keep up with life and work, it doesn’t mean you have to keep your head down and work harder. Karen Skidmore and her team are on a mission to empower businesswomen to create a new rhythm and flow to their professional lives in order to fulfil their potential and increase their level of impact. To help redefine your work patterns, the free Energy Tracker will help you to experience the cycles that affect your flow and how your hormones and the seasons all contribute to your productivity levels throughout the year. You can access this free energy tracker today over at www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation.***
Joy Burnford: I'd like to move on and sort of talk a little bit about working remotely because obviously we've been doing a lot of that in the last year. And one of the biggest challenges I think we're finding is that there's been sort of no boundaries between personal life and professional life and the expectation of being on all the time. Do you have any advice on how to manage this?
Sonia Astill: I'm not sure I'm the best person to sort of give advice on this because I think there are people who do better than me. But it but it's a very real topic isn't it? And I mean, it’s interesting in our business because probably 90% of our colleagues don't work remotely because obviously they go into stores every day in serving customers and have done all through the pandemic. But there is a significant minority of colleagues who do, including me, and mainly in the support centre. Generally I think people have really appreciated the opportunity to work from home through the lockdown periods. But, you know, I'm certainly getting more feedback, and I certainly feel this myself too that, you know, the downsides are becoming more apparent as time goes on. You know, the result of not switching off, the bit of burnout, the exhaustion, you know, that kind of thing. So I think it's becoming, you know, a really important topic to talk about. And I think there are strategies that businesses can put in place to help colleagues certainly in our business, we've done a number of things that are around this, you know, we've set aside non meeting hours, usually around about lunchtime with the expectation, and sort of giving permission for people to get out and go to the gym or go for a walk and being very visible, you know, I've posted things where people can see me doing that, well not going to the gym, no-one would really want to see that quite frankly, but sometimes I do some of my videos whilst I'm out walking, you know, and I think it just reinforces it's absolutely fine to do. But also, I think a key part of this is line manager education and training, we're starting to do a lot more of that now. And, also, just having, I think most businesses have put in place in quite significant wellbeing programmes, sort of over the past year or so. But I do think there are some personal actions. And these are things that I have done actually, I'm not always brilliant at sticking to it, but for example, you know, I definitely contract with my boss and my peers and my team about when I'm available when I'm not available, you know, when they can sort of catch me at my best. So again, I've mentioned it before, there’s lots of conversations about that. I have tried to prioritise my wellbeing you know, I don't always get to the gym classes or the swimming, you know, but in the main I do try to get out and have a walk. One of the biggest things I've done actually is when this pandemic started, I set up my desk in the bedroom, and other spaces in the house were used for home-schooling, and play rooms and all sorts of things. But actually, as times gone on, it's become really apparent to me that I need to move into a separate space. And I have now done that, because it's just so tempting when you go to bed, you know, you see the little flicker of lights on the computer, you think I'll just quickly get that email out and what have you. So there are things I think that we can do. I have started to do but I do need to be a lot better to be perfect.
Joy Burnford: I had, as you know, I talked to lots of people for my research. And one of the things that really struck me was somebody saying they have non negotiables in their diary. So you don't have to say that you're necessarily picking up a child from school or you're going to the gym, but you just have these non-negotiables that you all agree that if it's a non-negotiable in the diary that you'd respect that, that boundary. And I think that's that was a really good idea.
Sonia Astill: I think that's great. And I think if businesses understand that, I think that's a really helpful thing to do. I have to say I've taken a slightly different view, and as much that I do actually put into my diary, what I'm doing, and the reason I do that, and I never used to, I used to just sort of say it was you know, something different, some sort of password or code word, but I put it in because people have access to my diary, they can see, and I think it's really good for someone to see, I'm dropping the kids off or I'm going for a walk or, you know, I'm doing whatever, that's not work,
Joy Burnford: Exactly, and actually I do things like, because I run my own business, but I go to the hairdresser and I’ll be reading a book to prepare for a presentation but I'm still going to the hairdresser's, I'm not sitting at home at my screen, you know, you're doing something different and try to mix it up a bit. And you're right. And I think the whole role model thing is so important.
Sonia Astill: Well you're much better than me because when I go to the hairdresser, I read the trashiest magazine I can find!
Joy Burnford: I'd like to move on to talk to you a little bit about networking. So we all understand the benefits of networking, but it can be particularly hard for women, especially with children and sort of, you know, managing to attend events outside of work hours, and obviously this is pre pandemic. I just wondered how you used to manage that. And how do you see the future of networking? Obviously, learning from what we've learned in the last year about online virtual networking and that kind of thing, do you see it changing at all?
Sonia Astill: I think it will change, I have to say, I've done more networking during the pandemic than ever before, because I think that the virtual world has opened up multiple opportunities to network that I absolutely believe will continue, because people are getting benefit from it. And it's just so much easier for everyone, actually, regardless of whether you have family commitments, or elderly parent commitments, or pet commitments, or whatever your commitments might be. I think, you know, for me, it's been, it's been quite a rich period to be able to do that, you know, when I think over my career, and networking, you know, when I was younger in my career, and I didn't have many responsibilities, I think I just used to go to everything. And back in the day, it was always drinks and vol au vents, and you know, you would seek out people that you liked, and have a bit of a chat with them, that sort of thing. And then of course, then when life gets a bit more complicated with elderly parents and children and actually work perhaps just gets a bit more demanding, I'm really conscious, I kind of checked out a bit on the whole networking thing and felt quite sort of inept, actually, because I knew I should be doing it, but I just physically couldn't manage to do it. And I think you know, what was good about that period is I became very, very focused on what I would attend. And it would only be either one or two things, one, that it would fundamentally help me do my job better. Or it was to get some insight into a very specific thing that I would be working on at that point in time. And anything else that fell outside of that just didn't, didn't make the cut sort of thing. But that's been quite a good skill to develop, because I still do that, and even with the virtual opportunities, I'm still very purposeful about why I would join a particular event and sort of network. But you know, I just don't think you have to necessarily go to stuff outside of the working hours. So, you know, we work with a number of suppliers, and you know, we invite them in into our HR team meetings, or I will just invite people in, in my working day and just say, look, let's just talk about what's going on in your part of the world. You know, what insight can you give us, and I think if you have a really great relationship, we've done that, anyway, Joy, you do some great work with us on the modern leadership programme. And we talk about what's going on, and I get massive value from your sort of insights, but also my team bring people in as well and I learn from them. So I think there are multiple ways in which you can network and get insights.
Joy Burnford: Exactly. And I think, you know, networking is so important, and I think organisations in particular need to think about bringing it into the day, rather than the evenings, because it's so important. I think it's a shame for you know, some people to miss. So finally, we're running out of time, but it's been an amazing conversation. But before we finish, I'd love to know what your advice would be, what advice would you give to your younger self? Is there anything, you would have changed?
Sonia Astill: Gosh, a bit of a tricky one. Because I'm a firm believer that everything sort of happens for a reason, and I'm not really one for regrets, and necessarily doing things retrospectively differently. But I think if there was one thing I would pull out is the advice I would have given my younger self would be to be as demanding of other people as you are of yourself and have the confidence to be demanding. There is a point that you get to in your career, whereby you know, bags of personal responsibility, and taking everything on because everything's an opportunity actually starts to be counterproductive because, you know, you run the risk of spreading yourself very thinly, your home life, your personal life suffers as a result of that, but so does your ability to be effective, because as you become more experienced, and more senior, you know, you need that time to think and direct a business as opposed to be, you know, caught on the hamster wheel of doing. And I think my advice would be, would have been to me, it would be very thoughtful about when you're reaching that tipping point because I reached that tipping point and didn't recognise it and half killed myself trying to do everything for everybody. And so I had a bit of a wakeup call and I thought, hang on a minute, I think I need to, you know, and I'm not really talking about being demanding of your team. I mean, I think that comes more naturally when you're a boss and a manager, but being more demanding of your peer set, and your boss, that does require a bit of confidence. And you do have to take the leap of faith that you know that is the right thing to do. So I think that's probably my advice to my younger self.
Joy Burnford: Amazing. What an amazing way to end the podcast. Thank you so much Sonia. It's been a delight as always, and I look forward to talking to you soon.
Sonia Astill: Likewise, Joy. Thanks ever so much.
Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.
And remember you can download a free easy-to-follow Energy Tracker to help you see how your monthly cycle contributes to your productivity levels at www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation.
Thank you, and until next time, goodbye.