Juggling what life throws at us

Our focus for this Season is ‘Fitting Life and Work Together’ and it an absolute honour to welcome Professor Rosie Campbell, Director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership at King’s College London as my guest. Today we’ll be talking about 'Juggling what life throws at us.'

A big thank you to Karen Skidmore: Business, Life & Leadership for sponsoring our second season. Karen and her team are on a mission to put a stop to midlife burnout by helping women to create a new rhythm and flow to their professional lives and are offering you a free easy-to-follow Energy Tracker to help you see how your monthly cycle contributes to your productivity levels. Download your free tracker here.

About this episode

Our focus for this Season is ‘Fitting Life and Work Together’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women about their careers, work, family and how they juggle everything life throws at us. It is an absolute honour to welcome Professor Rosie Campbell as my guest today. Rosie is a professor of politics and the Director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership at King’s College London. I was very fortunate to get to know Rosie during the first lockdown when we researched the impact of the pandemic on gender balance in business. We had lots of zoom calls whilst home-schooling children so she knows a lot about ‘Juggling what life throws at us’ which is what we’ll be talking about today.

Resources

Download your free Energy Tracker:  www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation

This free easy-to-follow resource from our sponsor, Karen Skidmore: Business, Life & Leadership, will help you to see how your monthly cycle, hormones and seasons all contribute to your productivity levels throughout the year.

My Confidence Matters research report on the impact of the pandemic on gender balance in business - Rethinking leadership through a gender lens: New ways of working resulting from Covid-19.

Episode transcript

Joy Burnford: Hello, Rosie, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.

Rosie Campbell: Hi Joy, thanks for having me.

Joy Burnford: Today we're talking about how to manage a career with family and fitting this all together without going completely crazy. I'd love to start with asking you a little bit about your role at work and your family at home. And how do you manage to fit life, family, childcare, and work all together?

Rosie Campbell: I can't promise I haven't gone completely crazy! My children are now 12 and 10. So I'm past, well I think I'm past the most intense period, although I have a lot of friends who tell me that actually in some ways, they need your attention more at this stage. But I think like for many people, the most intense stage of combining work and family was when they were very little, but I'm past that now. So I'm the Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London and I'm also a Professor of politics. My previous job to this one I was in an academic department just doing my professor work and not directing and I worked at Birkbeck, and part of the University of London is all evening teaching. And in some ways that was good in that we're very flexible about start times but in other ways it meant that I was quite often out at night. So when you've got young children, you get up ridiculously early and then you get home late, it was exhausting but it was a little bit flexible. But also, formal childcare. You know, it's very difficult for people who work non-conventional hours, obviously, if you are not in a position to afford a nanny. I was incredibly lucky when my kids were little, and my mum did an awful lot for us and until my kids were school age, my mum helped us an awful lot. And then since school age, things have been a lot more manageable. My husband and I split everything 50/50 before school and after school clubs. But I suppose one of the lessons for me in the last year has been what a shock it is not having all the logistics to think about all the time with one of us travelling or not travelling and you swap the pickup and suddenly we're both here all the time. So it's made me realise just how hard that juggling act was. And given my eldest is now at secondary school, and my youngest only has a year to go, it's made me tempted not to travel for work for another year so that we don't have to deal with all of that juggling quite as much.

Joy Burnford: It is really hard, isn't it. So you've talked a bit about your mother, have you had any others in your support network that you've had able to rely on? Have you used any different forms of support?

Rosie Campbell: I mean, my mum really was crucial in the early days because I did want to see the kids sometimes, and because I was teaching in the evening, nurseries and so on wouldn't really have worked. So my mum used to arrive later, by which time I'd often had five hours with the kids and was very happy to hand them over. And if I wasn't teaching that evening, she would leave and I would do bath and bedtime, and then I would perhaps do some more work in the evening. So at that time, I did a lot more of the childcare than my husband. And it was only when the kids went to school, and my mum stopped doing that, that he had the impact on his life with sharing everything 50/50. And that was an interesting moment.

Joy Burnford: And I, you know, I take my hat off to women who do full time being a mum, because I just couldn't do it, I've never been able to do it. And actually, you know, you talk about the bath and bed, it's really nice, when that's the sort of unique thing that you do maybe a few nights a week. But I don't know about you. But I just found that very, very stressful. The whole kind of being a mummy full time, when I sort of had time off on maternity leave and things, I couldn't wait to get back to work.

Rosie Campbell: I do remember the first day of getting on the train to go back to work and suddenly realised that I was drinking tea out of a cup and nobody was asking me for anything. I also really liked the combination of the two. I'm very family oriented, and I adore the children but I really liked the combination of having some mental stimulation from work as well as the family.

Joy Burnford: And I know a number of people are faced with confidence challenges, obviously, this podcast is all about confidence. And I just wanted to know have you ever personally faced any confidence challenges, you know, struggling to fit things together? You know, either at work or at home?

Rosie Campbell: I mean, I tend to think that anyone who doesn't suffer a little bit from a lack of confidence is a monster. Obviously, when it becomes debilitating, that's the problem, isn't it? If having a little bit of self-doubt makes you a reflective person. But if that becomes crippling and limits your opportunities, then that's when you have to do something about it. I mean, I think I definitely have moments where I think I'm not being a very good mother, or I'm not being as good as my job as I could be. And I think that it's a kind of form of conscientiousness and I'm not sure I buy into the idea that we should be as over-confident as a lot of men. I mean, I suppose when you talk about support networks, I haven't necessarily had many other support networks in terms of childcare but actually hearing positive reinforcement from friends and colleagues is so important, isn't it in terms of confidence. And I think I've been very lucky that I've had bosses who have been incredibly supportive and encouraging. And I know from friends and colleagues, that isn't a universal experience, and that's made a big difference.

Joy Burnford: That's one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast, because I want people to realise that they're not on their own. For example, so many people I've spoken to say that they feel like they're sometimes a rubbish mother, there are some times they feel they can't be good at both things. And that stress can be really challenging. I think you're right, if you've got a sort of support network, friends, family who can understand that and just say you're not alone here, we're all kind of feeling this juggle. That's really, really helpful. So before the pandemic, as you know, one of the biggest obstacles cited by women was a lack of flexible and remote working. And then for many of us, this suddenly became a reality overnight. But it wasn't necessarily the sort of work life balance holy grail that we've been hoping for. And as you know, we did the research with you last year during lockdown, which found that women struggle to work from home as they continue to shoulder this burden of unpaid care. And could you talk a little bit about that? What are your views on that? And what can we learn from this in the future? I know, we shared stories about doing home-schooling and things over that period of time.

Rosie Campbell: I think there's an idea that flexibility is a panacea for women and for women with caring responsibilities, and men with caring responsibilities, but actually, to an extent what parents need is predictability. If you need to be able to pick your children up at six, because that's when the childcare provider closes, you need to be there. And so flexibility if it's actually what it really means is we want you to be always available and always on, isn't going to work. Just being at home, if you can't actually do that bedtime or do that pick up, is not helpful. So I think what I really strongly believe is that we do want flexibility, but we also want to be able to say to our employers, right, there's a certain deadline, I will shift my childcare and I'll make other arrangements but actually, that isn't a day to day expectation. And the problem comes when work is organised in such a way that you have no predictability, and you need to be able to always put work first. And unfortunately, there are too many work cultures that that is how you signal your motivation. It's not necessarily about what you produce or the quality of your work, but your willingness and availability to drop everything all the time. I think that's the definition in some ways of a toxic work culture, that everything has to be put to one side, and that that's the norm rather than out of the normal.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely. And I remember you saying that when we were chatting last year about, you know, when people were going back to sort of hybrid working and saying, Oh, well, you know, this week, we can perhaps go in two days a week or the next week, we're going three days a week, or you know, just flexing and actually just being aware of each individual's needs, so personalization and understanding each individual's circumstances is a big first step, I think, isn't it for organisations. One of the main challenges with remote working is obviously blurred boundaries between home and work life, have you come across this or have any advice or tips that you can share with our listeners about managing this.

Rosie Campbell: There's a lot that we can do as colleagues to try and change cultures within workplaces. One of the things that really struck me when I first joined Kings, was that I didn't seem to be getting any emails at the weekend. And then I spoke to one of my line managers, a Dean, and he said, Oh, we had a policy a few years ago, where we asked, except for if there is an urgent situation, for colleagues to avoid sending emails outside of normal working hours. And the cultural difference is massive. I had a former boss at my previous employer who it seemed to me, I didn't know how, suddenly on a Monday morning, all these emails appeared and she did write them on a Sunday, but she set them on a timer, because she didn't want to set expectations that colleagues would be working on a Sunday. And I just thought, how thoughtful and what a good practice that was. And I think we should all be mindful of that. That very often, when you're a working parent, it can be really useful to be sending those emails at 11 at night, because you know that you're going to the school show the next day, or whatever it is, you don't necessarily realise the impact you're having on other people so actually thinking, you know, setting it out to go the next day is really useful. So I think what you need is leaders in organisations to be doing that, to actually send the signal, not only will we not think you're working hard, or will we think why can't you get your work done in office hours? Why are you not thinking about the impact on your colleagues? We should see those as bad working practices, if we are constantly emailing people at strange times of day.

Joy Burnford: Yes. And I do it myself. I mean, I think I was emailing somebody at 6.30 on Sunday morning, actually, because it was just when I happened to be awake and I had some time to respond to an email. And I think, you know, I think I should perhaps be better at doing that. And also, I've seen somebody who has put at the bottom of their emails, I may be sending this email out of office hours, but it doesn't mean I need a response, that's a really nice idea.

Rosie Campbell: And sometimes I will, you know, there will be something I need to get done but I'll just write for Monday, you know, in the subject line. So if someone's scrolling through their phone, they know that I don't need to deal with this now.

Joy Burnford: Yes. And I've heard as well that some organisations, and this is quite extreme, but during the pandemic, and sort of remote working, some companies actually switched off emails and stuff. They kind of said, right, we're switching all the systems off so you have to have a break. And that's, that is quite extreme. And I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that. But it's interesting how some companies are sort of trying to do things in a slightly different way.

Rosie Campbell: Maybe if you just did that once or twice, it might work very well to signal actually, this isn't how you get on in this organisation. There are always occasions where something comes up, and you've got to be responsive out of hours, it's just when that becomes normalised in the expectation. So maybe that was a useful reset, you wouldn't want to do it all the time.

*** I hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I just want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about the free Energy Tracker that our sponsor is offering you. If, like me, you sometimes find it hard to keep up with life and work, it doesn’t mean you have to keep your head down and work harder. Karen Skidmore and her team are on a mission to empower businesswomen to create a new rhythm and flow to their professional lives in order to fulfil their potential and increase their level of impact. To help redefine your work patterns, the free Energy Tracker will help you to experience the cycles that affect your flow and how your hormones and the seasons all contribute to your productivity levels throughout the year. You can access this free energy tracker today over at www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation.***

Joy Burnford: So one of the things I was going to ask is how do you think flexible and remote working will impact women professionally and personally, but I think we've touched a little bit about that. But if you could give our listeners perhaps one tip for juggling everything life throws at us, you know, what would that be?

Rosie Campbell: We often strive for the perfect when maybe we need to strive for the good. And I think that's true of our parenting and of our work and yeah, there are sometimes and there are some things that are a really important priority for you and that you're always going to be there, for me, it's my kids piano practice. I don't know why but that's the one thing I will not let go off. But you know, other things that I'm not always the best parent around is making sure they've got everything, all the art supplies they need, whatever that project is, and they know that they look at me and they sigh and they have to find it themselves, I just don't care that much. And I think you have to have the things, your priorities, just as you would in work, and the things that you're going to give less attention, because you can't be 100% on everything. And I think that's probably my advice, cut yourself some slack, work out what your priorities are, really focus on them. And also, of course, whatever you drop, one of the dangers is if you don't drop anything, then no one else will pick them up. So I don't really care about sports, I'm just not that interested. My husband does all of that, you know, because there's space to fill. And I think sometimes that's useful.

Joy Burnford: That's interesting. One of the things that my husband and I have been trying to do is work out a kind of fair way of splitting things. Because I had a bit of a meltdown the other day, I was saying I can't cope with all of this stuff in my head, this whole mental load thing of how do you manage everything? And I just explained it. And I said, look, I need to sort of split this a bit differently, because I'm still thinking of everything. And I'm just, you know, all the stuff about mental load. But how do you sort of manage that? Do you do kind of each, compartmentalise and have your specific areas that you focus on?

Rosie Campbell: I'm conscious that this is recorded, because I wouldn't say this has always been a smooth negotiation but we are now in a position where I'd say it's 50/50. I have to say that I certainly think there is a social expectation of women to be brilliant mothers. And the expectation of what that is, is more hands on than it is for fathers. You know, the father historically took time off to go to the school play, well, well done you. If your mum's not there, why aren't you there? It would always strike me that whatever there was at school that needed doing, school calls me then they call him. Sometimes I just don't answer the phone if it's the school number. And I know that he'll be the next number. And if they call me again, I will answer it. So I think sometimes you have to back away and make space for that space to be filled. And I think there are a number of areas of our family life. I've mentioned sport and art. I'm really interested in the academics, my eldest daughter loves reading and I'm really engaged with that and thinking about what books and then I just step away from other things. And thankfully, they have been filled.

Joy Burnford: I think I think that's the challenge, isn't it, you're sort of leaving it and then nobody picks it up. My husband focuses on the football. So my daughter plays football and he manages everything to do with the football, which is great, because it's his interest. And he manages it from kind of the beginning to the end. And I don't get involved. I know he's taking that. And I sort of think about it more in a work context. If you're delegating something, give somebody that whole area of responsibility to manage it from the beginning to the end. And that's where things can sometimes go a bit pear shaped in family life when the wife thinks the husband's thought about it, and the husband thinks the wife’s thought about it, and then it turns out nobody's thought about it.  

Rosie Campbell: Absolutely.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Rosie, is there anything else that you wanted to add on this whole kind of work life juggle that we haven't spoken about today that you think would be helpful to our listeners?

Rosie Campbell: Well, I think we've been talking about this negotiation that goes on within families and I think it can be quite fraught, sometimes, especially when you're at the stage of life when you've got a young family and you're just starting to make those decisions. And I think it's then that you often find the sort of social norms have infiltrated your family in a way that you might not have realised. And I would say, don't give up then, that's a crucial moment. Make sure you have that battle and you get things organised fairly, because if you don't, it's going to be much harder to change things later on.

Joy Burnford: Yes. And even before that, I heard somebody the other day saying, thinking about who you're going to marry, you know, actually, before you even get to the engagement marriage stage, you know, is this person going to be there and support you in the way you want to run your life.

Rosie Campbell: It's a good point. And actually, we know from lots of research that women who are successful in their employment, women who are in long term relationships, that partners support is absolutely critical. So I would say wholeheartedly make sure you get yourself involved with a feminist man.

Joy Burnford: Yes. Absolutely. When I had my first child, my husband actually took a whole year off and was sort of a house husband and dad. I remember he would bring my daughter to London, so I could, you know, in between meetings, I could see her and stuff. That's quite a dream, but I think that could be done more of.

Rosie Campbell: Yes, so much more. I sort of feel a little bit sad that I'm of a generation that the opportunities for men, although you managed it, the opportunities for men to take parental leave, were not the same as they are now. And I know there's still much more work to be done but we know it's better for kids and it's better for the families if dad's are more involved in beginning.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. It's been lovely having you on the podcast today, and I look forward to chatting again soon.

Rosie Campbell: Nice to chat.

Joy Burnford: Bye. And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.

And remember you can download a free easy-to-follow Energy Tracker to help you see how your monthly cycle contributes to your productivity levels at www.karenskidmore.com/theconfidenceconversation.

Thank you, and until next time, goodbye.