Defining career success

Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting to the Top’ and I’m delighted to welcome Jenny McGrandle as my guest. Today, we’ll be talking about defining career success and why career success is personal.

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About this episode

Our focus for this Season is on ‘Getting to the Top’ and I’ll be talking to some incredible women and experts from around the world to share their real-life stories, advice and tips, to inspire you in your career. 

It's an absolute pleasure to welcome my good friend Jenny McGrandle as my guest today. Jenny is an employment lawyer at Dechert and I'm delighted she's joining me to talk about her own career journey, and why career success is personal.

Resources

Gail Morgan Style: Gail Morgan Style is offering our listeners 15% off all colour analysis sessions, and any of her other styling services, when you reference this podcast. To find out more, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.

Episode transcript

Joy Burnford: Hello, Jenny, and welcome to The Confidence Conversation.

Jenny McGrandle: Thank you, happy to be here.

Joy Burnford: It's really lovely to have you here. And as you know, the theme for this season is all about getting to the top. So today we're going to chat a bit about your background, your career, how you reached where you are today, and some of the challenges you've experienced, and also top tips for other women who are wanting to become successful in their career. So I thought we'd start off talking a little bit about your background and your career, if that's okay, so how you reached where you are today. And you know, did you always want to be a lawyer, for example.

Jenny McGrandle: I'm afraid to say that rather than unoriginally, yes, I did from about the age of 15 or 16. And this will date me, but it was largely as a result of watching LA Law, and wanting to be Susan Dey, Grace Van Owen, as I think she was called in in the series, sadly, my reality is somewhat different! But anyway, that set me on a path.

Joy Burnford: Oh, brilliant! Tell me a little bit about you know, your day to day and what drives and motivates you, you know, it would be really interesting to know sort of how you stay motivated. When it's, you know, it's really hard sometimes when you're, you know, when you're working, got family, and often life kind of gets in, you know, gets in the way. So I'd love to know, kind of what keeps you going what drives and motivates you?

Jenny McGrandle: It can be hard, I agree. But I think for me personally, I've always been very conscientious. And really, it's, that, just always wanting to do the best possible job that I can do for my clients and my colleagues, for my employer. That's what gets me out of bed each day and keeps me going day in day out, really.

Joy Burnford: Do you struggle with that sometimes?

Jenny McGrandle: Not really, I mean sometimes the job can be, you know, the hours can be long, it can be stressful, but I think I'm very determined. I've got quite a lot of stamina. So I'm not I'm not going to give up really until the case is won or settled or whatever it is.

Joy Burnford: And perhaps all lawyers are like that are they? Quite driven and motivated?

Jenny McGrandle: Yes, it tends to be a common feature, I think.

Joy Burnford: Great. And what what do you think's helped you most in your career? You know, have you had external sponsors, or coaches or mentors, anything like that that's helped you.

Jenny McGrandle: I'm not sure that I can particularly point to one thing, I think I've had help and support from multiple sources over the years, I think I've been very fortunate wherever I've worked. I've worked in a supportive, friendly environment. And I've had support from, from senior colleagues, from managers from junior colleagues from peers in my profession. I think there are lots of, I'm an employment lawyer, and there are lots of employment lawyer networks as I got to know other lawyers, different firms over the years. And of course, support from your family as well. That's, that's been invaluable.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely. Absolutely. That kind of brings us on to the sort of the focus for this podcast episode, which is about kind of career success. And I'd love to know, you know, what does career success mean to you? It means different things to, you know, to different people. And I wonder if you know, what does it mean to you and has it changed, your opinion changed over time from when you were a graduate? Did you think of success in a different way to how you think about it now, has that changed?

Jenny McGrandle: Yes, I think it has changed. I'm not sure that I had a particularly clear idea of where I would end up when I was in my 20s. But I suppose I'd always wanted to, to do the best that I possibly could in whatever, you know, whatever I was doing, whether it was A levels or degree or whatever. So I suppose I would have imagined that I would be a partner, which of course, I'm not. And that is one very obvious measure of success in a law firm environment. And I do sometimes beat myself up a bit about the fact that I haven't achieved that. But then it's a cliche, but there are lots of different measures of success. And I suppose, for me, I need to keep reminding myself that I have managed to keep working at a city law firm in a demanding and stimulating role, which I enjoy, whilst also bringing up a family and trying to ensure that I, I carve out sufficient time for them. And I do feel I mean sometimes as you know, the balance doesn't always tip in the right direction. But generally, I feel as if I have achieved a balance. So I suppose that, for me is success, even though it might not be the traditional model of success for a lawyer.

Joy Burnford: I think a lot of people are striving for that balance, Jenny. So it's amazing that you've, you've got that. And you're right, it's sort of you know, you're thinking as a law firm in particular, there is that sort of, and other professional service firms is that kind of trajectory. And it's like, you know, to get to the top, in in success means getting to the very, very top and being partner, whatever, but actually, you're right, it's, it's, there's often a different way of looking at it. And actually happiness and balance and getting those things together is really, really important as well. So it what do you think has been the biggest, you know, the major factor in your success? Do you think?

Jenny McGrandle: Well, again, I think lots of things, but I think, honestly, two things. First is the support of grandparents, when my children were very young, that was completely invaluable, because I wouldn't have wanted them to have been in nursery four days a week, or whatever it was for long hours. So we take a lot of help from grandparents, my mother in particular. And I would say, also my husband, because my husband has always been willing to do his share of the childcare, in fact, if I'm honest, probably more than his share. So without that, I wouldn't have been able to stay in this job because my children would have would have suffered, you know, they wouldn't have had someone at home to put them to bed at night, I would say it's that really.

Joy Burnford: That's really wonderful. You've had that support network, it's amazing. So what do you think is the most important lesson that you've learned in your career, if you can think of one, doesn't have to be one, it could be two or whatever, but you know, what are some of the lessons you've learned?

Jenny McGrandle: Well, I was having a conversation with another female lawyer at Dechert recently who was currently on maternity leave. And I didn't mean to stray into advice, because that can be really annoying. But I found myself saying something to her, which I remembered it when I was thinking about what I might say today. And I think it's this, which is that you mustn't compare yourself to other people, it's very easy to do that. But everyone's situation is different. And what works for you and your family might not work for someone else. And vice versa.

Joy Burnford: Coming back to kind of partner, and that sort of thing we talked about, you know, do you feel that you've reached the top? Or do you want to still keep progressing? And it's difficult, isn't it? When you say do you want to keep progressing to a senior role? Because, as you say, maybe that's not what you want to do? I don't know, maybe you do, maybe it's still something you're striving to do. Tell me a little bit about that, you know, do you feel you sort of where you've got to in your career? Is that sort of the pinnacle? Or do you still want to sort of go further places?

Jenny McGrandle: Well, I think the key word in that question is progress. So I want to feel that I'm continuing to progress in some way. And I don't quite know what that is or what that will look like. I don't particularly want to be doing exactly the same thing that I'm doing now until I retire. So I think it's about sort of diversifying. So for example, I recently did the seeder mediation course and got that qualification, just finding new things in your role, new things to keep you interested and stimulated. I think that's the most important thing. I mean, law firms have traditionally not been great at retaining women in particular, in senior roles, there has been a policy, the so called up or out policy, which meant that if you weren't interested in partnership or weren't suitable for for partnership, you were discreetly asked to leave. I think law firms are much better than they used to be. There isn't that same up or out policy generally now, they have recognised that there might be senior lawyers who don't want partnership for whatever reason at a particular stage in their career, but yet nevertheless might have useful skills, experience, etc, to offer. So I think law firms are definitely heading in the right direction. They've recognised that there is a sort of off track career progression possibility, though even that word off track, sends the wrong message, doesn't it and slightly makes you feel like you're, you're a failure. But anyway, it's improving.

Joy Burnford: Yes, and absolutely. And it's, you know, I think anybody else listening in the similar situation to you should absolutely feel that you're, you know, just because you're not yet partner, it's not a failure, it's actually as you say, you have to decide what you want for you, as an individual and what works for you and your family. So coming on to some of the challenges and obstacles that you've experienced along the way and how you've overcome them. As you know, this podcast is called the confidence conversation. And indeed, I'm coming to talk to Dechert in a few months time about confidence and how a lack of confidence can be a barrier for many women. And men, I should say, as well, not just women. But tell me do you describe yourself as a confident person?

Jenny McGrandle: Well, I think my automatic response to that would be no, but then I thought about it some more. And actually, I would say that I am a confident person. I mean, if I'm talking about something that I that I know about, and I'm well prepared, then I can speak with confidence. And I like to think that I would sound competent. I think my problem is more that I'm not good at self promotion. And I think that's a characteristic I share with with many women. I can't stand completing an appraisal form. Just the whole idea of trying to make myself sound like you know, the most amazing lawyer ever I I really struggle with. And perhaps I suffer slightly from a lack of self belief. I slightly think it's not surprising that I'm not a partner. You know, I'm not fit to be a partner. So I think it's not confidence. Exactly. I don't quite know what it is. But there's, there is definitely something that has slightly held me back in, in my career, I would say.

Joy Burnford: You're right, Jenny. And I think you know, we've talked about it before, and I come across as very confident but I have, you know, the inner confidence that one has can be very different to the outside and I often think it's a bit like a swan paddling, frantic and frantically under the water. And on the top, you can look really confident and serene, but actually underneath your thinking I'm not good enough. Yes. And this holds of imposter syndrome type thoughts that come out.

Jenny McGrandle: Yes. And I think it is that whole that, the fake it to make it thing, I mean, I think there is a lot of truth, in that you do just have to go around sounding really confident pretending to your junior college, that you absolutely know what you're doing when sometimes you don't.

*** Joy Burnford: I do hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. I want to take a moment to tell you a little bit more about my reasons for doing this podcast. At My Confidence Matters our mission is to work together to navigate a path to gender equality through building confidence and capability. I’m passionate about enabling every woman to have the confidence to progress in their career, and I love talking to, and sharing women’s stories to inspire others. This podcast forms a small part of what we do, and if you think there’s room for improvement in the way your organisation understands and manages the issues, barriers and obstacles that women face in the workplace, please do get in touch or tell your HR contact about us.

And don’t forget, developing a consistent personal brand can help you build your confidence and achieve your ambitions. So, if something as simple as clothes is standing between you and success, the amazing Gail at Gail Morgan Style is offering you 15% of all colour analysis and other services when you reference this podcast.***

Joy Burnford: But also, I think it's lovely that, you know, this is one of the reasons I have this podcast because I think it's so important to share that actually not everybody you might come across as confident but actually everybody suffers from lack of confidence at times when you're doing something for the first time. It's totally normal. And actually you shouldn't beat yourself up about it and just think, well, this is part of the process, you know, you actually have to go through these things.

Jenny McGrandle: Absolutely. And indeed it can be useful because you know that's why you prepare for for a talk or you know, whatever it is that you're not going to stand up and make a complete idiot of yourself.

Joy Burnford: That's it, it's a bit like you know me doing this podcast. I love asking the questions but put me on the other side, the other side, which I did this week I was interviewed. I hate it! I hate being asked the questions, because that, for me is where I'm not in my comfort zone. That's not so, you know, I'm very happy asking the questions. But soon as I'm put on the spot, I find it more difficult to do that. So perhaps you know, can you tell me a little bit about, you know, a particular confidence challenge, and then how you've dealt with that? You know, and if you've got any advice to those who might be struggling with a lack of confidence,, what have you found that helps you to overcome it? And we've talked about fake it till you make it. So anything else that you would advise?

Jenny McGrandle: I think really, it's preparation. Preparation is key, because if you're well prepared, then there's no reason not to feel confident. And I do generally find that the situations where I don't feel confident is because I'm underprepared.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely, that's one of my biggest learnings as well, because I used to think I could just stand up and speak and push myself and perform without doing any of the planning and preparation and practising, actually, which comes with it. And I think that's been a big learning for me is actually putting that time in. And I think often that's quite hard in organisations as well. And when you're in a corporate role as well, it's quite difficult because you're not often given the time and you're there's a lot of pressure put on you to deliver in quick space of time. And I think that often, that's something I talk to organisations about is actually give your people a bit more time and actually check, they've got enough time to do that preparation, because that's what's going to cause these moments of confidence crisis, if people haven't got the time, or they're juggling, you know, to go home and dealing with children at home and then having to come in the next morning, you know, and present or something.

Jenny McGrandle: Absolutely, the Superwoman pose immediately before a presentation is helpful as well I find!

Joy Burnford: Absolutely, going to go into the toilet beforehand and getting yourself in that mode. So let's just talk a little bit about your personal life if that's okay, and you have children like me, so you know, you face the juggle, like many of us, so how do you manage to fit work life together? And we've talked a bit about your husband, and grandparents, is there anything else you wanted to add?

Jenny McGrandle: Yes, definitely the support I've had at home. I think also, I've been very fortunate that right from the word go. And this is going back quite a few years now I've had very enlightened bosses, perhaps it helps being an employment lawyer, because we have been accustomed to advising clients on on flexible working and that sort of thing. But nobody's really ever questioned my ability to do my job, part time. And I always felt that I had the trust of my managers to get the job done. Even though I might not be in the office, you know, all the time, not as present as some of my colleagues. So I think that is that's helped enormously.

Joy Burnford: And I forgot to say that at the beginning, actually, that you are part time. Remind me how many days,

Jenny McGrandle: I work four days. And it's broadly been four days. I've dropped down to three and a half days at various points for various different reasons. But actually, even during those times, it was pretty hard to stick to the three and a half days. So I think four days is about the minimum you can do as a city lawyer.

Joy Burnford: And it must be hard on your day that you're not working to actually switch off and actually focus on things.

Jenny McGrandle: It can be, it varies really, I mean, I always check my emails, you have to, but clients have also been amazingly supportive, actually. And I think, initially, and when I first started working part time, it was still relatively unusual, I would say, and sort of general understanding was you wouldn't really admit to clients that you worked part time, you just happen to be out of the office quite a lot in a month. But over the years, that attitude has, without doubt changed. And now I have no hesitation in saying to clients, I don't work on Mondays, if I need to be available, I will always make myself available. And a lot of my clients just now they know that I don't work on Mondays and they will even say oh no, we won't have the call on Monday, it's fine, it can wait till Tuesday. And that's, that's really nice that they remember it and they acknowledge it and don't want to trample over it. So yeah, I've been very fortunate.

Joy Burnford: That's brilliant. And I think obviously the pandemic has probably helped with that as well hasn't it with people being more aware of flexible working and working remotely and that sort of thing as well, which can only have helped. So let's talk a little bit about your own health and happiness because I think often with women and mothers that work, looking after yourself can become the sort of the last thing in the list of priorities. So I'd love to know kind of what do you do to focus on your own health and happiness?

Jenny McGrandle: Well, it's difficult trying to fit all that in but I think I've learned over the over the last however many years that there are two things that I absolutely need to survive. One is sleep. I absolutely have to get enough sleep. And the second is exercise. If I don't get enough exercise, then I can't really function, I just find that so useful for my overall well being and and for dealing with the stress that does inevitably come with, with my job and sort of juggling, etc, that just helps keep everything on an even keel.

Joy Burnford: Well done for, for keeping up with the exercise, and it's hard to do that sometimes. So, I'd love to know what advice you'd give to your younger self, you know, is there anything you would have done differently? You know, what do you wish now that you'd known then?

Jenny McGrandle: It's a difficult question, because in a way, I don't think I would necessarily have wanted things to turned out any differently. But I think my key piece of advice would be that I should be more strategic, because I don't think that I've necessarily done anything wrong in my career. But I think I've been guilty of well it's interesting, actually, I asked my husband, that question, and he said to me, you're very job focused, but not very career focused. And I thought that was interesting. And actually, he's absolutely right. And I think I've been slightly guilty of just focusing on the here and now. And it's difficult not to when you're a working mother because you're thinking, I've got to get the work done for today. What are they eating tonight? Have they done their homework, you know, all these things? And then what are the deadlines I have to meet today. And at the end of this week, so when suddenly someone starts asking you, so where do you see yourself in a year's time, you just think, well, I've no idea, I can barely see myself getting through to the end of today. So I wish I had been a little more, because I think a lot of attaining partnership or getting to the top of your career, whatever it is, is about having a game plan. And I think I should have had a better game plan than I've had perhaps.

Joy Burnford: Yes, that's really interesting. And I think that's obviously the beauty of coaching, which we do a lot of and actually encouraging. I think, you know, all women, if possible, and men, everybody should have the opportunity to have a coach at some point in their career, because it's exactly that kind of stepping back time that you don't, you really have to try hard to get that focus time, don't you to think about the big picture. And I find I'm writing my book at the moment, you're getting that deep thinking time, it was hard work to get myself into that deep thinking space. Because I'm not I'm not a deep thinker. So I do generally flit around like day to day, I'm doing all the juggling, but actually forcing me to do that writing the book was actually quite interesting, because it gave me that focus time to, which is really hard to carve that time out. And I did it at about five o'clock in the morning quite a lot of days because I had to get up and do it without the kids around.

Jenny McGrandle: I can't imagine how on earth you found the time to write a book!

Joy Burnford: I don't know either, I'm not going to do another one in a hurry, that's for sure. So let's just finish off Jenny with, you've given some amazing tips already. But you know, perhaps what are your three top tips for other women wanting to progress in their careers.

Jenny McGrandle: I feel very ill equipped actually to give tips, particularly to the young women of today who all seem to be so sorted, and just I don't know, far more equipped to deal with the working world than I was at their age, I think but but I have managed to come up with with three. The first actually is one that I've stolen from a friend who's also a lawyer. And he was talking about what, he was actually talking about what he looks for in a trainee. And he said, you know what, all I really want is cheerful competence. That's all I'm asking for. And I really liked that actually. So I thought you could apply that anywhere. I think just try to be cheerfully competent in your workplace and no one can really criticise you. The second one is if you don't ask, you don't get. And I've never ceased to be amazed over the years by how many times someone has said yes when I expect them to say no. So and you know, what is the worst that can happen? Someone says no. So what but just don't be afraid to ask for what for what you want or what you think you deserve. And the third really links back to what we were discussing earlier. And that's strive for your own idea of success, not someone else's.

Joy Burnford: That is brilliant. I can't believe you said you weren't sure you had good top tips to offer to other people. They are amazing top tips. And I love that cheerful competence. I'm going to take that one, that's fantastic, isn't it? Well, thank you so much, Jenny for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure as always to chat.

Jenny McGrandle: Thank you Joy.

Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do pass on the link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could subscribe, rate and leave a written review (on Apple podcasts here or on Podchaser here). If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics.

And remember you can get 15% off all virtual and in-person colour analysis sessions and other services at Gail Morgan Style when you reference this podcast. To book, call 01442 262696 or visit www.gailmorganstyle.com.

Thank you, and until the next time, bye for now.