Finding your courage

Written By Joy Burnford

Our focus for Season One is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and for our first ever podcast I’m joined by Vanessa Vallely OBE who is the CEO and founder of WeAreTheCity and WeAreTechWomen.

A big thank you to Capability Jane Recruitment for helping us bring this podcast to life. If you know a business embracing flexible working, head over to www.capabilityjane.com quoting ‘The Confidence Conversation’ and if they become a client they’ll thank you with a £100 gift voucher.

About this episode

Our focus for Season One is ‘Being Your Best Self’ and for our first ever podcast I’m joined by one of my own role models, Vanessa Vallely OBE, who is the CEO and founder of WeAreTheCity and WeAreTechWomen. Vanessa has been awarded, not just one, but 22 awards for her work in finance, gender equality, entrepreneurship and charity and is the author of a brilliant book ‘Heels of Steel: Surviving & Thriving In The Corporate World’ that I can highly recommend. I am honoured she agreed to be my first guest and today I’m talking to her about ‘Finding your courage’.

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Episode transcript

Joy Burnford: Good morning, Vanessa. Welcome to The Confidence Conversation. You're one of our very first interviewees so really delighted to have you here today. The theme for Season One is about being your best self. And who better to talk to than Vanessa Vallely, who has always been an inspiration to me ever since we first met. So I'm really happy to have you on our podcast. I'd love to chat to you about the last 12 months and your career and confidence and perhaps a little bit about networking as I know that’s something you're very passionate about. And, also what the future looks like for women in the workplace. So you always seemed to me like you're a very confident person. Is this true?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: It depends on what I'm doing. I would say when I first started I was very confident. Because I had nothing to lose. A lot of people know my background, coming out of a fairly socially and economically challenged area, starting work at 16. Anything I got was a bonus. I think it was a cloak that I learned to wear very early on. Because if I didn't push myself a little bit further, if I didn't come across as the person that really wanted it in the room, I wasn’t going to get a look at it. And I didn't have the accolades of the people that I was competing with for those jobs. So I think from that perspective, there was a lot of confidence there in the very early days. Then I lost my first job, which was a huge knock in my confidence. I think a lot of people know the story, I pulled out the behaviour of someone very senior to me, not in the best possible way. So I had confidence, but not tactical diplomacy. So that’s what knocked my confidence, wondering if I was going to get another job. And when I got into another job, I wasn’t going to say something that was wrong, so I think I probably retracted a little bit at that point. Then my confidence came back, climbing up the ladder in various different jobs. Every time I got a job, I felt a little bit more confident. And then every time I hit a situation in work that perhaps wasn't right, or I felt like I was passed over, or my voice wasn't being heard or my ideas weren’t being nurtured, then that knocked my confidence a little bit. Because, you know, when people don't listen to you, or you don't feel that you're adding value of any sort, it does knock your confidence. And I think if you're in an organisation where that continuously happens, and I was in a couple of jobs like that, where that kind of behaviour was continuous, and some of it was more directed towards me, but on others, it was directed towards a number of people. And it was just a toxic environment that doesn't breed confidence in anyone.

Joy Burnford: That was the finance industry, wasn't it?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: Yes, banking in the day of presenteeism, and ‘just get it done’. And obviously, the industry has suffered a hell of a lot since then. But I think there were instances like that, and then I'd get in a good job, and work for a good leader, and then that confidence would build again, and they would give me opportunities. I mean, one particular boss, used to helicopter me into teams to fix things. And to kind of get everyone to a steady state if they were going through hard times. And it was never a popular job, arriving saying I’m here to fix what you guys are doing and probably doing very, very well. But he gave me so many opportunities like that. And each time you go into a department where you need to fix things and streamline and make processes more efficient, you're dealing with people that know the grassroots stuff better than you do. You're just there to be more strategic. So I think that grew my confidence. And then getting to a more senior level, I think it was there. I realised when I was sitting around rooms full of men, and I could openly challenge and I had confidence in my own skin. And I knew my stuff and I wasn't frightened. And I do think a lot of that comes with age and lessons learned scraping your knees along the way. And just that downright stubbornness, that actually I will not get back in my box, I'm going to put my point across, this is an opinion and it's valid. So, I think I'm more probably like the 16 year old girl, especially now I'm not chained to the corporate city and I'm my own boss. I was never really good at being an employee for anyone, I was best left on my own to go off and do my thing. Now obviously, that confidence is there, but I still have sometimes have a lack of confidence, probably more to do with my own imposter syndrome. You know, when I'm sitting in rooms with highly academic people, knowing I don't have that background, or people that are exceptionally well spoken, and I start to worry about my words and my pronounciation and things like that. So absolutely. Of course, it never goes away.

Joy Burnford: Yes, and I've heard so many people saying that about accents when we've been doing training. People say ‘I'm really worried about how I sound’ and our response is that everybody sounds different, and that's brilliant because everybody's unique, and everybody's individual. So on a scale of one to 10, how confident are you feeling today?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: I'm talking to you, and I know and admire you, so it’s like an eight or a nine. But there are certain calls that I've got today, where, I'm a little bit nervous for whatever reason, more because I want them to go well, or the people that are attending them, so it will be different then. It will be different depending on who I'm talking to, but there are some days, and I know you're coming onto the last year, where I've woken up and I've not felt confident. I've not felt confident for a number of reasons, what's going on in society, what's happening in the UK, what’s happening in the world, that rock the core of me and make me sad. So every day is different, family health issues and other things. So sometimes you wake up, and it's just not there. And I think I've learned to say ‘that's all right’. You don't have to wake up tick, tock ready to go, and be on top form every single day.

Joy Burnford: So how do you deal with that? So you wake up, and I do this, it happens to me all the time. And people say ‘you're so confident’, but under the skin, there's often a lot that's going on and you get up and you feel really, really rubbish. What are the things you do to try and get yourself out of that sort of low state?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: It’s quite well known I'm a crazy dog lady, and I'm lucky enough to live fairly rurally. So I've got nature's wildlife around me, which is wonderful. And I deliberately moved out of London to have that, because I know it's good for my mental health. And when life is so crazy busy, which it's been for the last 30 years, but more since WeAreTheCity, running from meetings and late evenings, I need that solace. And so in a morning, the first thing I do when I get up is walk my dogs, sometimes just go and stand in the garden. There's a lovely field next to me and this time of year, you get the odd deer on it and you get ducks that fly over. And it's just closing my eyes and just taking a moment to breathe in the world. Before I look at any news feeds, because that can topple my day. And I just go and walk my dogs. As I say, I'm quite lucky to be around woodlands and water, which are the two main things for me. And just to go and walk the dogs and give myself some thinking time. And then I come back. I often feel like I do a day's work before eight o'clock in the morning!

Joy Burnford: I did the same this morning with my do, it's lovely. So thinking about the last 12 months, obviously, we've all been living in unprecedented times. What particular challenges has Covid presented you with that's affected your confidence?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: There were a number of things. Firstly, when Covid hit in the March, I was doing International Women's Day talks and I remember the news headlines and I remember standing in my office talking to my team saying I don't like the feel of this. I want you to work from home until we know what's going on. And they all work very flexibly anyway. And then I was talking to my clients about the talks that were coming up and asking is this really a good idea? And a number of them were saying, absolutely not, we’re going to postpone. There was one that was really adamant in going ahead even though Boris was on the news at five that evening. So that was a worrying time because my speaking work is how I earn my living. WeAreTheCity had conferences, planned events, the awards. And I was asking, what happens to the business? So I think the first thing, my natural fight or flight was to think what can we do to help people during this time. So the first thing we did was to set up virtual webinars, and there's about 120 of them now. So let's keep people going by helping them in whatever way we could; dealing with anxiety, working from home, all these skills that we had to obtain overnight. And then I thought about how we pay the bills? That came next and that’s when my confidence was massively knocked. Asking how are we going to survive this? My husband's contract was also cut, so I had no speaking work and my husband didn’t have a job. And we can only last for so long. I also support family members as well, financially, so it's not just me. It was a big deep breath moment. Anyway, Stewart managed to get another contract and that all worked out pretty well. But that was the kind of panic stations and I suppose I was questioning my own ability on how do I pivot and how do I pivot quickly? Although I've got a fantastic team, a lot of that falls on my shoulders. They're my client contacts, I had to come up with the ideas and they were all having ideas, but doing the job that I've done for many years, I know what I can put into motion. At that particular time all the corporates were in a state of flux. The first thing they were doing is thinking about how they keep their lights on without thinking about nurturing talents. So it was a really interesting time. And then we decided to virtualize the tech conference. And I started to have conversations with potential sponsors. And they were saying, this sounds amazing, this sounds something new, we've got to be doing something, so we're going to buy into it. I got a few sponsors on board and again, my confidence lifted, and then we delivered it against all odds. And oh my God, the stuff that went on behind the scenes of that conference, but it was seamless in on the day. So I think those were challenges. Thrown in were family health issues, which we never envisioned and losing people, close family and the affects. I’ve made no secret of it that my own daughter's got MS so there are challenges there, and she also got Covid. And various family members undergoing tests and cancer and things like that. So that was a really challenging time. Your priorities are there with your family, but then you've also got this nagging thing, pulling out your dress, saying, we've got to run a living as well, when you've got a community to support. It’s moments like that, when you talk about getting out of bed in the morning, you don't want to get out of bed, you just want to, and I'm being completely honest with you, you just want to pull the covers over. And just stay put, because it's the safest place to be.

Joy Burnford: I think it's interesting that you've managed to still show up and still have your smiley, bubbly face on the outside. But actually, you might have woken up in the morning feeling really awful. I think it's also being vulnerable and show that you're not feeling brilliant as well.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: I think nowadays, you can. Don't get me wrong, there were days in my corporate career where I felt the same, but we just never spoke about it, it was taboo. You know, we dealt with our demons in other ways, drinking too much and putting in ridiculous amount of hours into work. But nowadays, I think it's quite normal to talk about your own mental health and the fact that you can't be Superwoman, and you can't do everything. So I think in the last year it's been different. When I do my talks, I'm often very honest about my journey and my challenges. But in this year, doing people's podcasts, I'm a lot more open about what that looks like. But my daughter is a campaigner for MS Society, and she's out there doing her own blogs. It’s only right that I talk about her and I want to support her. I suppose there are certain things within your family that is private to such a point. But I think it's important that you talk about those things when it's okay to do so. Definitely.

Joy Burnford: So thinking back over your career journey, I'd love to know what your proudest professional achievements?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: There have been a couple of times when I got promoted. I think that was that was pretty good going. And I had to wait for it. There was one in particular I remember, I didn't get promoted that year. And I cried all the way home on the train. I felt like I had sold my soul to the company. I'd been doing ridiculous hours, hadn't seen the kids hadn't seen my husband. And I kept saying to him, you know, this promotion. And I didn't get it, because it was the person that was cried on the way home the year before. Do you know what I mean? That's how it works in banking. There's only so many that they can give. And it just wasn't my turn. It wasn't a reflection of the work or how much my boss thought I was great. It just wasn't my turn. There were just other people in the queue. And then when I did get promoted, you know, that was, that was pretty incredible. I think, when I got my job. When I got the Financial News award for ‘40 under 40’. I was really proud of that until I turned 41 and they kicked me off.

Joy Burnford: I really wanted to be on the Management Today 35 under 35 but that ships sailed as well.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: Yes, it was a very proud moment. I think getting my big job at Barclays, that was a proud moment because I was under 40 so that was pretty good going. And I would attribute this to my career, but obviously getting my OBE, because it was totally unexpected. And I do what I do, because I love what I do. And that's not like, putting a crown on my head or anything like that, I'm genuinely passionate that I will leave some sort of legacy behind this. And that my kids will see women thrive in in all areas of life and acceptance in society. And I won't solve that myself. I'm part of a huge machine of incredible women that are just trying to do their bit, but to be recognised in that way. To take my mum and dad to Buckingham Palace. You know, your parents are on loan to you, so that will always be a memory that I absolutely treasure. We may have started on council estates, but look where we are with Prince Charles, you know? That was a very, very magical moment. But I have magical moments all the time. Like when my Rising Stars awards shortlist gets announced and the winners. I'm lucky enough to have seen 900 women come through our awards. And I've watched them like crazy on LinkedIn. I've watched them writing books and getting promoted. And don't get me wrong, they're doing that off their own merit and we are a tiny, tiny part of that recognition. But you know, I just love it. And so every day is a bonus, when I get to see a huge family of incredible, incredible women. Amazing.

Joy Burnford: And I loved reading your book, Heels of Steel. I often don't manage to pick up a book and read it from beginning to end. But it was so easy to read. And I love the fact in there you said that somebody once told you, you couldn't write and then you just loved the fact that you could then send them a copy. So there's a story of confidence.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: Yes, exactly. That was overly confident. But it was very tongue in cheek to that individual, I do know them fairly well. But the point is, there are so many people that, and this talks about confidence as well, that will plant seeds in your mind. And you know, I've got another one, years ago, one of the gentlemen I worked with, I gave him some numbers, and obviously I was having an off day, and there was a number of mistakes in the numbers, which is not good given the job that I do. And he said ‘you're not very good with numbers are you’ and I took that as gospel. And I put that in my brain and I grew it. So the next time I had to do the numbers I was questioning my ability. And if I was in a room where we were asked, who’s going to pull the finances together for the project, I would not put my hand up. Because I was told I wasn't very good at numbers. And I carried that for years, even into jobs. I kind of got away with it. I needed a financial accountant for the projects we were running and I just hired the best that I could possibly get on the market, because of my own fear of I'm not going to touch them. I know I can look over them. But if I've got someone who's absolutely fantastic and better than me, which is the right way to build a team anyway. But I still carried that. And it was only when I started running my own business. I thought, well, I wouldn't be here 10 years later if I was crap at numbers, right. And apparently according to my kids, my mental arithmetic is second to none.

Joy Burnford: It’s similar to me with presenting and speaking. I would never do it 10 years ago.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: Me too. If anything I used to pass those opportunities on to other people. They thought I was being kind, but actually it's because I was petrified to.

Joy Burnford: We’ll move on to talking about networking, and it came up in your book quite a lot, about the importance of networking for women. Why do you think it is so important?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: We need people, right? We won't get anywhere on our own. So it isn't just networking, let's collect people, you know like stamps. It isn't about that, it's let's build relationships and build relationships on the basis of what can I do for you, long before what you can do for me. So in order to network, you need to be in the right rooms and sometimes it's uncomfortable, especially if you're an introverted individual or you don't naturally come into your own in that environment. But even one conversation, or going to one thing a month is a little bit out your comfort zone. And go with a friend but don’t stay with that friend. Find or join up with other people. Eventually, it's really interesting when you get to listen to individuals and what they're about, what their aspirations are, and the bigger your network becomes and the more you build these relationships, the more you can help those individuals. Because the more people you know, the more people you can pass people along to that can open up doors of opportunity for them. So, for me, it's an absolute must. And I think even though we've been virtually locked down, last year I built out our WomenInTech conferences off my sofa, reaching out to people through LinkedIn, asking people that I knew, could you connect me to this person? Or someone who's really good on AI? Do you know someone who's really good to speak on cyber? I'm looking for some youngsters? Had I not put in the footwork years ago making those connections, those asks are a lot more difficult. I think sometimes people think, Oh, I can build a network overnight and are often done. I think I mentioned it in the book. When I wanted to change, and when I hit a critical point where I wanted to have more than my day job, and do something more with WeAreTheCity, my network was who I could see across my office, because I never put the time in to build those relationships, to build up my own integrity with those individuals, that would put themselves on the line by putting me forward for something or introducing me to someone that they know, knowing that I was going to deliver because they'd seen me deliver previously. So I don't think it's something you can build overnight. I always recommend doing a people plan at the start of the year, like who strategically do you need to meet? Who do you need? Are there potential mentors within that group? And also who can you help? Use that as a framework as you go through the year to build those connections. So for the last seven years, my people focus has been very much around women in tech. Making sure that I know all the organisations that are doing stuff for women in tech, all the all the key players, who are the CEOs and CTOs that are women in the organisation, that's been my life's work. And it's great, because I've had those relationships. I've had conference calls with 160 speakers on this year's conference, I wouldn't have built that network, even if I was on foot in the city. There’s a lot to be said for lockdown and building relationships.

Joy Burnford: Absolutely. That's one thing I'm interested in. As you know, I'm writing a book called ‘Don't Fix Women’. And one of the chapters is about networking, because I think a lot of women I speak to don't have the confidence to network. And also, they often have to be the ones going home to pick up the kids and lots of networking events happen in the evening. So I'm really interested to explore ways, especially with the Covid experience, new ways of networking in the future that are equal. I call it a kind of golf course to the spa. You wouldn't necessarily expect women to be going to the golf course, you wouldn't expect men to go to the spa with you. So it's that middle ground, rethinking networking and the future.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: There’s lots at play. So for example, for the tech conference this year, we've used a virtual platform, and there's an article in the FT that talks about all these virtual networking platforms. It’s a virtual space and we've drawn out different areas that people can congregate like you would have in a physical space. And when you go in there, your little avatars go into the platform, and you can walk around like you would explore a physical space. And then as you walk towards other people, your avatar and this is a bit like a kids game, if you're familiar with Sims. And as you walk together, a little Zoom window pops up. It’s taken away the hierarchy and the uncomfortableness because you can just rock up to any little group of avatars, which is much better than breaking into a conversation of other people. And you just pop up in a zoom window, go, Hi, everyone. So as much as people want to be in a physical space, and we want to be there to feel the ambience in the room and the atmosphere. With my awards and stuff, although we've done pretty well creating that online, it's nothing like being there. But platforms like that, I think will play a massive part. And it's the evolution of that technology as an enabler that will bring us together. But what's really interesting about that platform is the fact that you're not just sitting in a window, you're using your keys on your keyboard to move yourself around. So it's almost close to gaming, as well. So it's just a different dynamic.

Joy Burnford: This leads us into the future. Are you feeling optimistic and positive about the future for women in the workplace?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: No. It's well documented that as much as I'm the eternal optimist, and I like to dress things up, that it's all going to be okay, and it will, don't get me wrong. But I just think we took a major hit during the pandemic, you know, homeschooling children, lack of visibility, having our own confidence knocked. I just spoke to a number of ladies that feel a bit nervous about going back to their jobs and how they will readapt to how it was before. I even said to my husband the other day, how is it all going to work when you're going back into London, and I need to be in London and the three dogs and the caring responsibilities that we've got, you know, So I think I think it will be different. I think if the firms continue to adapt, it'll be a better place for women. I definitely think we've got some catching up to do. I'm interested in pay gap data, because obviously, they shelved it last year. And they were going to shelve it again, other than there were a number of petitions. So I think it's going to be a bit of a rocky ride. I don't think we'll know truly, for a couple of years, the proper impact of that. If companies are more transparent around their data, who's getting promoted, what the pay rises are, talent strategies, who's leaving the buildings and so on. Until we've got that data in, we can't really see. But I'm optimistic in the respect of the flexibility that we've now got within some companies. We've seen much more empathy coming from leaders, we seem to understand each other's lives now, which is something you'd hide before, but there's probably things that my team know about me that they didn't know before. But I know things about them. So we've had this whole kind of suffering from a woman's perspective. It’s a worrying time until the date is out. There were so many things I could say about lockdown and its impact on women from violence and problems outside of the workplace, or wherever.

Joy Burnford: As you know, we did our research last year, and a lot of things like the empathy piece came out saying there's a lot more empathy. But my biggest worry is the two-track system and that with this flexibility, we don't revert back to men going back to the office and women stay home.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: Absolutely. And I think really keep an eye on that. But pushing shared parental leave, the guys can work flexibly changing that mindset of, it's going to be a detriment to my career, if I'm at home, sharing that responsibility with the kids. Some of that we're paying a price for our generation. I think you look at the younger generations, they're not having any of it, you know, we're sharing this. So eventually, over time that will kind of clean itself out. But, you know, there is still this idea that men are the hunter gatherers, if you like.

Joy Burnford: So in the future, if you look back in 15 years time, what legacy would you like to create?

Vanessa Vallely OBE: I'd like to think that if I look at my daughter, that they don't face the same thing. So we don't even have to have pay gap regulations anymore. It's just a given. I'd like to think that we've used, WeAreTheCity and WeAreTechWomen to raise the voices of a multitude of women that wouldn't have otherwise been heard. We've supported smaller organisations in their growth. So they're all the things I'd like to see when I'm sitting in my dog cafe knitting. There you go, make up the what's next.

Joy Burnford: Amazing. Thank you so much, Vanessa. And before we finish, can you tell people how they can find you find out more about you.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: They can look at WeAreTheCity. That's the first port of call and there’s loads of different events for you on there, and women's networks, and we interview incredible women and men on gender. There’s loads of inspiration on there and our awards and obviously our conferences. And then if you're in tech, you've got WeAreTechWomen. And generally you can find me on Twitter and I'm on Instagram in many different guises. So, my work account and my secret craft account, but mostly on Twitter.

Joy Burnford: Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

Vanessa Vallely OBE: Thank you for having me.

Joy Burnford: And that’s it for this week. Thank you very much for listening and I’ll be back again soon with another Confidence Conversation. If you know anyone who might find this podcast useful, please do keep the conversation going and pass on a link and it would give me a real confidence boost if you could leave a review and subscribe. If you like what you’ve heard, sign up for updates where I’ll be sharing tips and notes from each episode and you can send in your ideas for future topics. And remember, if you know a business who could benefit from Capability Jane’s recruitment service, get in touch via their website quoting ‘The Confidence Conversation’ podcast, and if the business becomes a client they will thank you with a £100 gift voucher. Thank you, and until the next time!

Joy Burnford
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